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April 10, 2009

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I wonder, though. What about John 13: 27 and verses like it? If Satan took an active role in the arrest of Jesus, what does that mean for Judas? Was he just a pawn of Satan's at that point? Why does he hang himself if he thinks he has done the right thing? If Judas thinks that Jesus is the earthly king, why betray him? One is then reminded of the lyric: "My mind is clearer now. At last, all too well, I can see where we all soon will be. If you strip away the myth from the man, you will see where we all soon will be." Did John really know that Judas was helping himself from the treasury or did he just suspect it? Were his motives that simple-minded? Once again, if so, then why hang himself? Realization that Satan had duped him?

Jim, the questions you raise are ones that have helped me down this path. Why was Judas so distraught, when it was by his own hand that Jesus was betrayed? It makes sense to me that he was trying to architect "the coming of the kingdom" as he understood it, hoping to maneuver Jesus into an ultimate confrontation that would lead to his claiming power. After all, Jesus claimed authority.

The thing about reading the story in this way is that it opens up a world of lessons and applications for us. Rather than being the story of this mean, evil dude, I am suddenly faced with questions about whether we are understanding the kingdom of God, or trying to manipulate it according to our own understanding. It raises questions of how we use power. Suddenly, as some say, "The Bible is reading me."

And thanks for bringing up that lyric! Jesus Christ Superstar is an interesting example of an attempt to rethink Judas. The ideas don't work for me, but the music is awesome. …Hmm, why can't I find a photo of Judas wearing the white fringed jumpsuit for the title number?

No, but I can find you pictures of Jack Black as Judas. Hoo boy.

Jack Black as Judas?? Wait, a quick search reveals… ahhh, he played Herod. That must have been delicious. Though "delicious" is probably the wrong word for him.

It probably works for him to play Herod. He would probably ham the role up out of all recognition. "Nacho Herod!"

In point of fact, Lloyd Webber's idea didn't work for me either but do you remember the play we put on in high school in which Chris Thompson played Herod in "The Business of Good Government?" It was kind of along those lines as well.

There's been a kind of shift in thinking about Judas over the years {kind of a filmmaker's view} but unfortunately the view being currently expounded here misses the point. Let me just start by saying that of all the characters that come up through the bible, Judas is the one I most feel sorry for. Him and Achan. My heart just goes out to the guy. He obviously felt sorry and was remorseful after his doggy deed and I will always wonder why he didn't go to God and ask for forgiveness. After all, Peter's denial was at least as bad, in my opinion. At least Judas didn't pretend he didn't know Christ !! But it demonstrates the essential difference between the two men.
However, we need to remember that the only information any document in history offers us about Judas is the bible and therefore, we can only take what these pages tell us rather than read into matters what, at best, can only be supposition. And there is no evidence at all of any politiking or contact with the Zealots from Judas. From Simon, yes. But not Judas. I think "John"'s words about Judas being a thief may be kind of bitchy.....or they may simply be true and what reason would "John" have for lying or trying to make Judas look bad ? He couldn't look any worse, could he !!? The record clearly tells us that Judas was deliberate in his actions. After all, if all he wanted to do was force a confrontation, he didn't need to take the money. Nope, Judas betrayed Jesus, no doubt about it. To suppose otherwise is to fly in the face of the only available evidence and popular as it may be, taking such a position is worrying. If I was on trial and innocent, I wouldn't want such folk on the jury ! I'd not be confident that they would assess the evidence.....
The Lord said prophecy had to be fulfilled so how much real choice Judas had is perhaps, at least questionable. Not much though. I still wish Judas had asked for forgiveness though, because deep down, I'm just a big softy.

grimtraveller, that is a really interesting contrast you draw between Judas and Peter!

You know, I've been struck for many years by the similarities and differences between the Judas and Peter. To me they illustrate the essential difference between being sorry, full of regret and remorseful about something {which, in court terms, here in England can get a criminal a much lighter sentence when found guilty - the perception being that it is a good thing to be sorry} and what Paul refers to in one of his letters to the church in Corinth as "Godly sorrow that leads to repentance."
Jesus made it clear that anyone that denied him in front of men would be denied by his Father. Now, I no longer think that he meant one off denials. I believe that he meant continual denials, both verbal and behavioural, when the pressure was on. We have no way of knowing what Jesus and Peter said to one another after Jesus was raised from the dead but just Peter's response to go running to the tomb after Mary's report of him being alive tells you that Peter was a man that wanted to make amends, one way or the other. I think he gambled his entire reputation and pride in the belief that he'd be forgiven. He would have had some idea of what it would mean to be known as the guy that pretended he didn't even know the guy that not long previously, the Father had revealed to him as the son of God. He had alot to lose ! Furthermore, it could have been the beginning of a lifetime of denials, a real achilles heel for Satan to whack at again and again and again. It was no consolation to him that all the apostles had run away when they saw the guards and their swords and clubs !! A big fisherman like Peter crying his eyes out when he did what he did ? He was sorry !!
But so was Judas. It occurs to me that pretty much all of the above applies to him too. But his sorrow was not the Godly sorrow that leads to repentance. In other words, it didn't go far enough. It was a self centered kind because he would not see beyond himself. Peter could've hung himself, but like the tax collector in Luke 18, he was desperate enough to recognize that if God really was merciful, then the only way he could honestly see that would be to take the gamble and throw himself "on the mercy of the court". The worst thing God could've said was "Get lost, mate" and his position would actually be no different. But whatever one thinks of him, he trusted Christ. And Judas did not.
The only thing that makes me slightly hesitate where Judas is concerned are Jesus' words about prophecy being fulfilled and 'woe to the betrayer'....one could read a certain inevitability into what happened. So the question remains as to exactly how much real choice Judas had and leading on from that, could he have repented ? I accept that that looks like it contradicts everything I've written, but it doesn't really. I just try not to skirt around difficulties because they appear to contradict or because I simply can't explain them.

grimtraveller, thanks for expanding on the Peter/Judas thought.
Some may have difficulty with the apparent contradiction you come to in the end. But in some ways that is a specific (and perhaps extreme) example of the tension between free will and predestination. I accept both. Our faith seems to live best in paradox.

Wow, that's an age old chestnut, I know, free will vs predestination. I'd go further than saying that our faith lives best in paradox - as far as I can determine, it is paradoxical. There are so many believers who in practice live paradoxically {for example, if God has predestined things or knows in huge detail all future happenings, why pray ? But we do !!} but don't accept paradox.
If it's of any use, for many years I've had this little theory that the sovereignty of God, the free will of man and the responsibility of man are not opposing doctrines to be used as a litmus test of where one stands in the faith, but rather, three sides of the same triangle. Take any one or two away and you no longer have a triangle. They are paradoxes, sure, but only to us. God obviously has no problem with paradoxes. Like the apparent chaos of the book of Acts, it's actually quite ordered to God. I think. Maybe that's part of what he was getting at when he said our thoughts and ways were not his thoughts and ways. While the Lord can be supremely logical, he's not bound by our kind of logic, hence he can and does move freely in and out of paradoxes.
I've felt for many moons that predestination is found in Genesis 1:26-27 and part of our problem is that we use the wrong definition whenever we use that word - also we make a grave error because for the most part, we link it with salvation and the afterlife. What I think we really mean 99% of the time is not predestination, but predetermination. And for me there is a universe of difference between the two.

Oh, I like the triangle illustration!

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